Rondo Continued

Yesterday I brought up how I was sick and tired of hearing all these Rondo rumors which led to a discussion on how valuable Rondo actually is. I was pulled away last night for getting into it with one of our readers who's opinion I trust the most in Coobs and I want to pick back up the discussion.

Anyways here was the back and forth;
Coobs said...
Trade him -- I'm sick of him.
I'm sick of his pouty attitude.
I'm sick of how overrated he is in this town.
I'm sick of his behind-the-back, through-the-legs flashy [UNNECCESARY] passes that miss their target, or don't hit them in the hands (wasting precious time for a quick strike).
I'm sick of the fact that he still can't shoot FTs consistently.
I'm sick of his matador defense.
I'm sick of the mentality amongst fans that "he can be good when he WANTS to be!".
I'm sick of overrating his stat line -- for instance, last night, he played well, but he was SNATCHING the ball away from players like Bass, Wilcox, etc. on rebounds.

Now, normally I find that aggressiveness inspiring, but then I realize that he's just selfishly aspiring toward a triple-double.

How about Tuesday night against the Cavs. He scores 0 (ZERO) points on 0-6 shooting, but all of his apologists point toward his 11 assists...and yet 6 of them came in the first quarter! So for the final 3 quarters he compiles 0 points and 5 assists?!? Your STARTING PG and those are his numbers? Atrocious. And I hate using stats to prove points, especially in basketball, because so much depends on luck.

Point of the matter: just get rid of him while you can. He's not a top 5 PG. He's too inconsistent, and he's a lockerroom malcontent.

then I responded;
Coobs, you know I wasn't going to let you get away with this right?

I guess we are forgetting the fact that this guy was an intrical part of 2 championship runs and the year when Kevin Garnett was injured he nearly averaged a triple double for the playoffs. I guess we are forgetting the fact his arm was bent the wrong way and still played against the Heat. I guess we forget that although the passes and dribbling may be fancy, those fancy passes averaged double digit assists last year and pretty much this year. I guess we are forgetting the matador defense and gambling ways has led his to 2 1st all defense teams. I guess we forget when he plays the other "top" pgs in the league, he consistenly outplays them. I guess we forget that Danny Ainges words that "Rondo and Doc have been getting along more this year than ever before". I guess muckraker Chris Broussards word is more reliable than the GMs. I guess we forget that he has been in the all star game for 3 years in a row.

Calling a triple double selfish is the most absurd thing I have ever heard in my life. Him getting demolished for rebounding and passing is something I never heard in my life. Also if we are going to mention the rusty game he had at cleveland after time off and breaking his performance down by halves, last night in the 3rd quarter rondo had 5 points, 5assists and 6 rebounds, so I guess his second half isn't worth mentioning if he has a good half?

Boston doesn't overvalue rondo at all, in fact I feel that most fans criticize him too much on a game to game basis rather than realizing they have something special here.

Ps this was typed on the phone and difficult to do.

Coobs;

Coobs said...
Awesome. A debate. Let's do this!

I guess we are forgetting the fact that this guy was an intrical part of 2 championship runs and the year when Kevin Garnett was injured he nearly averaged a triple double for the playoffs. I guess we are forgetting the fact his arm was bent the wrong way and still played against the Heat.
-- OK, these are all valid points, but they all have to do with past seasons. Let's focus on THIS season. I don't have a problem with the Rondo from the past -- I have a problem with the guy wearing #9 for the Celtics RIGHT NOW

Your points about being "1st Team All-Defense" twice and making the All-Star game 3 years in a row are well-met, but what does that even mean? All-Star voting is done by the fans, and it most certainly doesn't mean you are the best of the best out there -- it means you are the most popular. Case in point, Yao Ming for every season he played (the entire COUNTRY of China voted for him relentlessly), as well as Alonzo Mourning being voted as the STARTING CENTER in the 2001 game WITHOUT PLAYING A SINGLE REGULAR SEASON GAME.

In terms of his defense, I look at it much like a ball-hawking CB in football (hello, Asante!) All the steals he compiles (interceptions) look nice, but there isn't an alternative stat for points he's given up because he's going for a steal, or just flat out not hustling to get back into the play. His defense against the pick-n-roll is abysmal...he flops as if he's been run over by a truck whenever someone lays a pick on him. Refs don't buy it, and instead you're left with 5 on 4 with the offense almost always getting a good look.

Rondo's popularity has transcended his skills on the court. His value has regressed because teams have learned how to play against him. You give him the jumper, you cut off his driving angles, and force him outside.

Would the Celtics have contended in 07-08 without him? Who knows! And we'll never know, but that's life. Did he play OUTSTANDING in the '09 playoffs against the Bulls? You fucking bet! But that was a team without an identity after KG went down, and Rondo rose to the challenge. What's happened since...? That was 3 seasons ago, and it seems as if that was Rondo's peak...

I guess we forget when he plays the other "top" pgs in the league, he consistenly outplays them.
-- I don't know how much validity there is to this statement, for I can recall (just off the top of my head) instances where he's played CP3 and D-Will extremely tough, only to be torched by the likes of Nash and Jason Kidd. And yet again, I'll bring up the fact that none of this Top 5 PG Dominance has occurred this year! He's consistently been shown up by the Irvings and Stuckeys of the league -- they're not considered elite, why doesn't he perform better against them??

How is a triple-double selfish? Well, when you're turning down your own open looks to pass to a teammate so you can get that 10th assist...or ripping rebounds away from your big men...to me, that's selfish. I understand it's a stat driven league, and that's ultimately what will decide your paycheck, but when you're actively seeking it out, it becomes too selfish for my tastes. Serge Ibaka had a trip-doub a week back where he has 12 pts//11 rebs//10 blks -- cannot find fault in that!

Also if we are going to mention the rusty game he had at cleveland after time off
-- I have a HUGE problem with this statement! Rusty after time off??? He's 26 years old! All he does is play basketball! He was at the All-Star game (as you so kindly pointed out...played miserably I might add you), so I don't know how rust plays in. Ray Allen went away and came back and dropped 22 pts...no rust for him though? Same with KG -- 18 and 18. Rust should not be confused with lack-luster effort.

My problem with Rondo is that (as mentioned above) I don't believe he has progressed as a player since, say, that series against the Bulls. He still tries to pull the same deceptive moves that teams have caught on to. He's not a better shooter now -- he just shoots more, often at times looking like he's trying the prove to everyone that he CAN shoot. He still pounds the rock into the ground at the top of the key for 10-14 seconds before running any semblance of a play (this could be more on Doc than him, I'll admit that). AND HE CAN'T SHOOT FTS!!! This makes him less agressive, which I think we can all agree is the focal point of his game.

Keep this going man I wanna hear your take.

Ok, so I'll pick it up from here;

You want me to keep it this year, fine.

Rondo is averaging 14 points per game this season which is a career high, he's averaging more shots and makes this year and nearly 10 assists. Pretty good if you ask me. The only legitimate argument you have is the Cleveland game where he went 0-6 and had 10 assists. But yet, you glossed over when I brought up the breakdown by half of the triple double game.... convienant. And since when is crashing the boards looked down upon, do you really believe he saw Chris Wilcox or Bass in position for a rebound and said to himself, "Boy I need to snatch this rebound to get a triple double," no fucking way. Rondo has always been regarded as a great rebounding point guard, that's just what he does. Also, his 10th assist, that you accuse him of stat padding came off a Ray Allen pick play, he didn't force it underneath, he ran a set play and Ray hit the shot. ALSO, did you watch the post game? He didn't crack a smile when the media talked to him, he had the same demeanor as he always does. Which I believe has a bit of JD Drew syndrome where his emotionless expressions form unfair opinions of him.

The thing with Rondo past and present that nobody gives him credit or brings up is due to the cap space taken up by the Big 3, he has a revolving door of role players. This year especially when he had Chris Wilcox, Brandon Bass, Keyon Dooling, JuJuan Johnson, Mikael Pietrus and basically Jermaine O'Neal. And not only did he have all new players to work with, he had a shortened offseason/ training camp to get the feeling of the new players. So he deserves some slack in the beginning of the year for basically playing pick up game style a couple of times.

And you bring up the lack of progression in his game since the Bulls series. I think that's completely BS. Rondo may not be averaging 20 points a game and shooting 80% from the line, but he has definitely improved on his jump shot A LOT. And teams that have backed off him and cut off lanes have got burned by that (Chicago, Detroit, Knicks, Lakers). I know you watch the games and Rondo has a knack for dominating a game when he only has 6 points in a game. If he recognizes Pierce, KG, Ray or anyone is hot he finds them and sets them up for the easiest points possible (But I guess there is some selfish undertone to that too). I also don't believe his poor free throw percentage has stopped him from being aggressive at the end of the game, there has been plenty of time where he has and I believe that Doc is at some fault for this as well for letting the shot clock to run down to 9 before starting a play.

This year Rondo is a square peg fitting in a round hole. The Big 3's age has shown more than any other year and a lot of times when he is on the break, everyone on the team is trailing him by 5 or 6 steps, and he has had to adjusted to this, but yet gets no credit.

If you listened to Danny, Doc and the person I trust the most in Boston Jackie Mac yesterday, I believe we can shut the door on the malcontent/ locker room hate. Rondo is the best we have, we aren't going to improve from him and he is an absolutely a player you can "build around" once the big 3 is long gone.